支取mega backdoor Roth IRA的收益部分的话只要满足开户五年就可以免税吗

如果能做split rollover也可以
把basis转到Roth IRA
把gain转到Traditional IRA
然后再把Traditional IRA转回pretax 401k,实现闭环

普通(mini)backdoor也可以用类似的技巧:把nondeductible contribution等额的钱转去Roth IRA,超过的部分转去401k

多谢建议。我们公司要求所有401k都要用同一个portfolio,所以没法单独让after-tax部分只买money market fund。。。rollover倒是没有次数限制,只是每次都要填个表email过去,每个月搞一次有点麻烦。

多谢,这个方法问过了,我的401k不允许把转出到traditional IRA的部分再转回去

不知道我的理解是不是正确的:

目前是公司支持After Tax in-plan conversion 做 mega backdoor。这种情况是不是本金都可以随时取出来?

目前是公司支持After Tax in-plan conversion 做 mega backdoor。这种情况是不是本金都可以随时取出来?

in-plan conversion指的是在同一个plan里面转换。after-tax 401k 转到roth 401k可以叫in-plan conversion。mega back door 需要的是in-service distribution/roll over。本质上你是把这部分钱从plan里面取出来,只不过又立即放到了ira里面,被算做rollover。

after-tax 401k -> roth ira,这个属于ordering rule的3。你如果只有这部分的话可以随便取。
after-tax 401k earning -> traditional ira -> roth ira,这个属于2,会有五年规则。

纠正一点,Roth IRA 顺序是:
1 (所有)-> { 2(year 1)-> 3(year 1)-> 2(year 2)-> 3(year 2)…} -> 4
也就是说,1和4不需要按年份排序,总是最高最低优先级。
2和3一起按年份排序,同一年内2优先取出。

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/408A#d_4
408A(d)(4)(b) ordering rule

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感谢解释! 看来是我理解错了:rofl:

所以如果不满五年的话 本金部分如果在traditional ira部分由增长的话是不是那部分需要交税?

真正的本金部分应该可以随时取出来吧?

3部分取出确实没有税没有罚
但是你不能说跳过2只取3。所以随时取的前提是你没有2或者非常小。

+1,我们公司也只能填表手动搞,好久没有roll导致after tax 401k 里的pretax earning还挺多的。你roll的时候pretax earning自动到traditional ira里了吗?还是可以指定都到roth ira里,然后明年再报税?

如果不 rollover 到 Roth IRA 而是 in-plan conversion 到 Roth 401k,有什么缺点吗?

roth 401k取钱有自己的规则。

quantified distribution(无税无罚金)必须满足401k 已开满5年同时59.5岁,因为它是一种401k账户里的designated roth account。

离职的时候可以选择roll over 到下一任雇主的roth 401k或roth ira。roll over过去的本金算roth contribution, 对应 ordering rule的1,随时取。earning算ordering rule里面的4,要59.5岁以后才能做quantified distribution。

估计就几分钱 所以应该还好的样子

roth 401k转roth ira我没有看到确定的规则,但是我觉得应该是按上述3计算。也就是可以免税免罚取出。感觉算是个漏洞。
因为确实是rollover,也确实没有交税。

我的是roll over时要求traditional IRA账户的信息也要一起提供,401k plan那边会自己分类roll over,至于能不能pretax的部分也roll over到roth IRA里,我也不知道,没有问过

我说下我的想法以及找到的资料,欢迎指正。

  1. ordering rule 3 的原文

(II) Qualified rollover contributions to which paragraph (3) applies on a first-in, first-out basis.

roth 401k earning -> roth ira是否可以看作quanlified rollover contribution要看paragraph (3) 是否适用。

paragraph (3)适用情形

(B) Distributions to which paragraph applies
This paragraph shall apply to a distribution from an eligible retirement plan (as defined by section 402©(8)(B)) maintained for the benefit of an individual which is contributed to a Roth IRA maintained for the benefit of such individual in a qualified rollover contribution. This paragraph shall not apply to a distribution which is a qualified rollover contribution from a Roth IRA or a qualified rollover contribution from a designated Roth account which is a rollover contribution described in section 402A©(3)(A).

designated roth account是roth 401k。
这一段里面明确写了paragraph (3) 不适用于roth ira, roth 401k -> roth ira 的conversion。

roth ira不适用很容易理解。不然的话做一个roth ira -> roth ira岂不是把前一个roth ira里面的earning转化成后一个的non-taxable conversion,能在60岁前取出来了?
我觉得排除roth 401k也是同样道理: 为了将roth 401k 的earning归到roth ira的earning里面,防止被提前取出来。

  1. 我认为这个从法理上看应该是不让你做为3取出来的。

roth 401k -> roth ira -> distribute earning相当于用两步做到了roth 401k -> distribue earning,从而绕后了一步操作5年60岁的限制。如果成立的话,是一种未命名的back door 操作,也有step transaction doctrine适用的风险。不知道有没有数据点可以参考下。

  1. 我也参考了bogleheads上的讨论,都是说roth 401k earning -> roth ira earning。

以这种方式处理roth 401k earning的帖子数量非常多。
早的有2012年,最近的有2018年的。
你可以看Alan S的一系列帖子

Alan S在有些帖子里面解释roth 401k -> roth ira会收到1099R税表,把box 5填的roth 401k basis填到8606表的Line 22里面算做roth ira contribution。但这个只解释了roth 401k本金可以在roth ira roll over以后可以按contribution取出,没有说roth 401k earning怎么处理。

所以说我明没有在bogleheads上找到明确的法条解释。

这就对了
IRS不会去track你每年Roth IRA涨了多少。它的逻辑很简单,123都是报税记录里有的。取钱的时候就按顺序扣,123空了,剩下的就按4交税
Roth 401k的earning 部分既不能报成1,也不能报成23,那就只能是4了

有道理。

民间流传的ordering rule 1, 2, 3, 4是对法条的通俗解释

(B) Ordering rulesFor purposes of applying this section and section 72 to any distribution from a Roth IRA, such distribution shall be treated as made—
     (i) from contributions to the extent that the amount of such distribution, when added to all previous distributions from the Roth IRA, does not exceed the aggregate contributions to the Roth IRA; and
     (ii) from such contributions in the following order:
        (I) Contributions other than qualified rollover contributions to which paragraph (3) applies.
        (II) Qualified rollover contributions to which paragraph (3) applies on a first-in, first-out basis.
            Any distribution allocated to a qualified rollover contribution under clause (ii)(II) shall be allocated first to the portion of such contribution required to be included in gross income.

(B)(i) 是roth regular contribution
(B)(ii)(I) 是roth contribution内超出limit的部分,Roth 401k basis算在这里
这两部分对应ordering rule 1
(B)(ii)(II) 是rollover/conversion contribution,按年份先进先出,而且是会抬高gross income排在前。
这部分对应ordering rule 2, 3

roth ira里剩下是earning,对应ordering rule 4,Roth 401k earning只能放这里。

请问如果非要把earning取出来,这10%的penalty是怎么算呢?比如100块钱,是先收10%penalty,然后剩下90块收个税,比如如果税率40%的话,就剩下来54块。还是一种比较惨的情况,先按照100块收税,剩下60块,再收10%penalty,就剩下50块?这个就是好奇

第二种,你第一种等于说penalty是tax deductable的,哪有这种好事 :joy:
10% penalty 是additional 10% tax,也是tax,只不过不是加在income里面算的。

通常情况下你这么取还要考虑tax withheld够不够。

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最近剛好在研究這個問題,26 CFR § 1.408A-10 (3)(a) 裡有明確提到, Roth 401k 的 contribution 會變成 1, earnings 會變成 4

A-3. (a) Under section 408A(d)(4), distributions from Roth IRAs are deemed to consist first of regular contributions, then of conversion contributions, and finally, of earnings. For purposes of section 408A(d)(4), the amount of a rollover contribution that is treated as a regular contribution is the portion of the distribution that is treated as investment in the contract under A-6 of § 1.402A-1, and the remainder of the rollover contribution is treated as earnings. Thus, the entire amount of any qualified distribution from a designated Roth account that is rolled over into a Roth IRA is treated as a regular contribution to the Roth IRA. Accordingly, a subsequent distribution from the Roth IRA in the amount of that rollover contribution is not includible in gross income under the rules of A-8 of § 1.408A-6.

同時 in-plan conversion 進去 Roth 401k 再 rollover 到 Roth IRA 的部份,根據 Notice 2010-84,將會受到自 in-plan conversion 發生時開始計算的 5-year rule 限制。

Section 408A(d)(3)(F) of the Code provides that any distribution from a
Roth IRA that is allocable to the taxable amount of a rollover to the Roth
IRA (other than from another Roth IRA or a designated Roth account) made
within the preceding 5 taxable years is treated as includible in gross
income for purposes of applying the 10% additional tax under § 72(t).
The 5-year recapture rule also applies if the rollover to the Roth IRA
is from a designated Roth account and the distribution is allocable to
the taxable amount of an in-plan Roth rollover made within the
preceding 5 years. (See Q&A-12 of this notice.)

在 Notice 2010-84 Q&A 13 也明確指出將會歸類到 ordering rule 中的 2, 3

If an amount distributed is treated as attributable to an in-plan Roth
rollover, then the rules of § 408A(d)(4)(B)(ii)(II) and the last sentence of
§ 408A(d)(4) apply.

而且 Q&A 13 也寫到從 Roth 401k rollover 出來時,會以 pro-rata 規則計算哪些會從 in-plan converted 的部份rollover 出來。(細節似乎會牽涉 plan 本身規則和 rollover 的方法)

Under the pro-rata rules of § 72, of the $106,000 distribution, $106,000 x
30,000/210,000, or $15,143, is includible in P’s gross income. All of the $90,857
of the distribution that is a return of basis is allocated to the in-plan Roth rollover
account. …

同時,根據以下這段的講法,可知在 in-plan conversion 當中的 non-taxable basis 將會比較晚被拉出來,taxable 的部份將會比較早被拉出來。

Since the amount of the in-plan Roth rollover was $100,000, there is
$9,143 that may still be allocated to the rollover. This will be reported on a Form
1099-R, Distributions From Pensions, Annuities, Retirement or Profit-Sharing
Plans, IRAs, Insurance Contracts, etc., by the trustee if another distribution within
5 years is allocable to this rollover, but none of it will be subject to § 72(t) under
the 5-year recapture rule because all the taxable amount of the in-plan Roth
rollover has been used up.

  1. 但是他似乎沒有明確指出,如果 Roth 401k 裡有多個不同時期的 in-plan Roth conversion,則他們到底會照什麼順序從 Roth 401k rollover 出來?難道是跟 Roth IRA 一樣的順序?

    如果不知道這個順序,似乎就無法正確計算 5-year rule 到底是從何時開始算起。

  2. 同時他似乎也沒明確指出,雖然轉進 Roth IRA 後, 5-year rule 還是照 in-plan Roth conversion 發生的時間算起,但是在 Roth IRA ordering rule 裡頭,他被拉出來的順序到底是照 in-plan Roth conversion 發生的時間來算,還是照 Roth 401k to Roth IRA rollover 發生的時間來算。

    如果不知道是照哪個年代來算,似乎就無法正確計算從 Roth IRA 中提領時,到底會不會剛好提到這個 Roth 401k rollover 進去的 amount

不知關於這兩點,大家是否有什麼看法?

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